- InterChange Conference on Social Class in 1xbet online games login 's
Howards 1xbet online games login (Chp.1-22)
- June 12, 2000
- Karin Westman:
- Consider how social class is presented in Forster's novel,
given the 200 pages you've read so far. Perhaps begin with the
character of Leonard Bast: How is 1xbet online games login presented to the reader
in Chapter 6, for instance? Why do Helen and Margaret "take
up" Leonard Bast? How are we asked to evaluate their endeavors
and Leonard Bast's response?
- Karin Westman:
- (1xbet online games login can just respond to one of these questions in your first
posting...)
- 1xbet online games login :
- Forster writes, "All men are equal--all men, that is,
who possess umbrellas." I think that's the key statement
about Leonard Blast. He is obviously of lower class, but he wants
to move upward--1xbet online games login 's that whole 'pulling yourself up by your
bootstraps' sort of thing. Of course, Forster seems to be saying
that this is something very difficult to do given the class system
in England. He almost seems embarassed to like the symphony,
like he's not allowed to because he's lower class. Either that
or he feels like he has to like 1xbet online games login in order to move upward.
- 1xbet online games login :
- 1xbet online games login seems that we are asked to view Bast from the standpoint
that the reader can identify with the speaker. We the readers
are working under the assumption that we understand the author's
social position. 1xbet online games login is almost as if we are to pity him, but at
the same time we are forced to see or admit that Bast is in his
position because of the social structure of which we are a part.
I t is a s though we are indirectly responsible for his impoverished
state, and he is merely being held up as an example
- 1xbet online games login :
- Leonard Bast seems to me to be represented in a mixed light.
1xbet online games login is obviously worthy of Margaret and Helen's interest, but
1xbet online games login is bound by books so much - 1xbet online games login doens't seem able to capture
the spirit of his adventure but instead insists on discussing
books 1xbet online games login has read, much to the sister's dismay (although they
discuss literature as well, so I don't know that I see the difference...).
His portrayal in Chapter 6 is somewhat sad - 1xbet online games login appears to be
trapped in his class but struggling to get out by reading different
books to broaden his horizons. 1xbet online games login is also obviously loyal to
Jacky, even though 1xbet online games login obviously does not want to marry her, and
1xbet online games login is funny, too. His attempt to rewrite Ruskin's line is so
comical: " 'Let us consider a little each of these characters
in succession, and first (for of the absence of ventilation enough
has been said already), what is very peculiar to this flat -
its obscurity.' " (51)
- Karin Westman:
- Do you think that Forster's narrator asks us to be sympathetic
to Leonard's situation, 1xbet online games login percarious social class position
without a good umbrella?
- Karin Westman:
- Oops -- Banks has already posted 1xbet online games login sympathy...other thoughts
1xbet online games login the comedy of the scenes with Leonard?
- 1xbet online games login :
- 1xbet online games login also seems that we are offered some dehree of hope in
terms of the fact that he (bast) has not yet fallen into the
"abyss"(47)
- 1xbet online games login :
- Banks, I agree with you that Forster questions this. I think
the whole situation with Helen and Margaret trying to help him
out is an example of this, and in Chapter 22 when Helen is so
dismayed that Mr. Wilcox has wrongly informed them of the instability
of Leonard's company and caused him to get another (lower-paying)
job, 1xbet online games login is obvious that Forster is arguing the class problem.
(I also tend to side with Banks, the sister's, and with what
I think Forster is saying, that we are indirectly responsible
for Bast's situation.
- 1xbet online games login :
- also, in relation to the umbrella....1xbet online games login is almost comic that
our whole perception and description of Bast comes from an object--the
umbrella.
- Karin Westman:
- Yes, and I wonder how that comedy interacts with the kind
of socail commetnary Laura's mentioned. Are we laughing with
Leonard or at 1xbet online games login ?
- 1xbet online games login :
- I think the umbrella scene is supposed to point out the ridiculousness
ofthe British class system. Blast is so worried about his umbrella
that he can hardly sit still--because, of course, no respectable
Eniglishman can go walking about without an umbrella! 1xbet online games login 's maybe
like cell phones today or something. 1xbet online games login is his one material connection
to being seen as a respectable Englishman.
- 1xbet online games login :
- the umbrella seems in a way to represent the shield that
holds Bast back from being able to fit in to society, or to advance
in the society, but also, ironically, 1xbet online games login is the tool wwhich catapulted
(sp?) into the lives of the Schlegels
- 1xbet online games login :
- The umbrella is a very comic reference. The idea of 1xbet online games login being
stolen is SO uppermost in Bast's mind, and we find out later
that the umbrella is "appalling" (43). 1xbet online games login is also a
striking example, however, of the situation that Bast is in -
he is trying to improve himself and "pull himself up by
the bootstraps," like John said, but 1xbet online games login must be EXTREMELY
difficult to do such a thing when he has to preoccupy himself
with issues like the umbrella, which to me seems to stand for
the other petty difficulties of his life that keep him from pulling
out of his class situation - he can't even enjoy the rest of
the symphony or Margaret's conversation because he can't stop
worrying about 1xbet online games login .
- Karin Westman:
- Do you all think that the Schlegels and Wilcoxes are subjected
to the same kind of humor that 1xbet online games login 's narrator uses for Leonard's
percarious social position?
- 1xbet online games login :
- we are expected to both laugh as well as pity 1xbet online games login ....but
in everyone's pity or humor there is truth
- 1xbet online games login :
- and often, the extremes do bring 1xbet online games login upon one's own faults
- 1xbet online games login :
- Also, Blast's reading of books seems to be different from
the Schlegel sisters. He seems to read because he feels he has
to, or that he should, and that 1xbet online games login makes him better. 1xbet online games login isn't
the IDEAS that make him better, which is perhaps what the Schlegel
sisters are after, but 1xbet online games login is merely the fact that he has READ
something. "Oh, I've read Ruskin." But what did he
get out of 1xbet online games login ? 1xbet online games login may be, though, that Blast is forced by society
to do this.
- 1xbet online games login :
- oops. all 1xbet online games login time i've been calling bast blast.
- Karin Westman:
- Good points, John: That the type of experiences 1xbet online games login craves
are not what Helen and Margaret believe to be the correct ones.
- At one point the narrator says, speaking Margaret's thoughts,
that she was beginning to doubt the ability of culture to improve
those who needed 1xbet online games login , and that they might be lost to such necessary
redemption. Does this position suggest that either you have culture
or you don't--that one can't actually "become" the
Schelegels, as Leonard want to do?
- 1xbet online games login :
- most definitely teh Schlegels are subjected to teh same sort
of 1xbet online games login 's humor. I really am not sure I am able to back that
up though...
- 1xbet online games login :
- The other two families are so difficult for me to interpret
- obviously some of the Wilcoxes are subjected to humor, like
Charles Wilcox fussing with the chauffer after 1xbet online games login mother died,
and Dolly the whole time is trying to tell him something important.
Dolly is treated almost contemptuously as well, and Evie too.
The two younger females in the Wilcox family appear pretty flaky
so far.
- 1xbet online games login :
- well, in terms of class and Meg's comments, 1xbet online games login would seem
odd if she really believed that one could not advance, for she
anmd her sister really are not the upper crust of London. They
are not truly the wealthiest, though they are well off.
- Karin Westman:
- But does money=culture, or does culture=money alone? That
is, are we getting another yardstick of 1xbet online games login worth with the
Schlegels that may not be tied directly to money?
- 1xbet online games login :
- I don't think that Forster is necessarily trying to say that
one cannot become like the Schelegels. Even though Margaret doubts
the ability of culture to improve people like Leonard Bast, she
still insists on trying to help him out. 1xbet online games login is almost like the
"nature v. nurture" controversy - does some have to
be born into a situation where culture is predominant in his
life from an early age, or is 1xbet online games login something that is inborn and
can be acquired at a later time if a person was denied the opportunity
to experience culture growing up.
- 1xbet online games login :
- No, I don't think that the Schlegels or the Wilcoxes are
subjected to the same kind of humor that Bast is. We do see the
Charles Wilcox as pompous, but that seems to be the only kind
of thing like that. I don't think, as someone questioned, that
we are to laugh at Bast. His predicament is not funny. What Forster
is doing is highlighting the ridiculousness of English society.
THis is, after all, a society that forces a man (Bast) to be
so preoccupied with the horror of having his umbrella stolen
that he can't enjoy the symphony. The irony is that if he weren't
poor, he wouldn't have worried the least bit about that stupid
umbrella. And also, if he weren't poor, 1xbet online games login wouldn't be such a
big deal for him not to enjoy the symphony because he could buy
tickets any time he pleased. Of course we see the silliness in
worrying about an umbrella because we've never had to worry about
that kind of poverty ( I assume).
- 1xbet online games login :
- if 1xbet online games login look back to Helen's first letters to her sister,
she does seem to question the Wilcoxs' character, in that she
does seem to see the ridiculousness of the croquet games....and
how they seem superficial to a degreee.
- Karin Westman:
- If you'd like to switch to the other conference, you can....just
use the &1xbet online games login ;Join a conference&1xbet online games login ; function, and wait for
all the messages to load in.
- 1xbet online games login :
- I certainly don't think that Forster means for us to measure
the social worth of the Schlegel sisters simply based on their
money. I know I'm getting the little I know about Forster and
the Bloomsbury Group mixed up in this, but I just can't see that
he would value them only because they have money - I think 1xbet online games login
is their intellectual pursuits that interest Forster (and the
reader - me, at least!) the most.
- Karin Westman:
- John: So, if the Schlegels and Wilcoxes are not subjected
to the same kind of humor as 1xbet online games login , then isn't Forster making
his points at the expense of Leonard alone?
- 1xbet online games login :
- Banks, I agree with you. Helen does point out the ridiculousness
of the leisurely lives of the Wilcoxes. 1xbet online games login also points out the
silliness of the aunt.
- 1xbet online games login :
- Forster definitely presents all parties in terms of his own
subjective humor; however 1xbet online games login is very clear as to how and what
Forster is trying to say about that society and its superficiality.
- 1xbet online games login :
- I agree with John one hundred percent - 1xbet online games login is very easy for
us to laugh at Bast's predicament with the umbrella when probably
very few of us have had to worry about that kind of poverty,
as he said. I still think the scene is comical, however - I can
just imagine Bast's reaction when he walks in the house and Helen
is going on and on about stealing umbrellas and hats. The language
of the passage makes me think that Forster also intends this
to be comedic, though not necessarily at Bast's expense.
- 1xbet online games login :
- so, in a way, no one is exempt from ridicule...is 1xbet online games login human
nature to condemn others, or poke fun at those who our different
from ourselves?
- 1xbet online games login :
- I agree with Laura that Forster doesn't want us to like the
Schlegels just because of theor money. But 1xbet online games login is precisely that
money that allows them to pursue their intellectual interests
instead of worrying about an umbrella. On page 63, he writes:
"You and I and the Wilcoxes stand upon money as upon islands.
1xbet online games login is so firm beneath our feet that we forget its very existence."
Exactly.
- 1xbet online games login :
- and does this mean that Forster thinks society is cruel,
but also that we are slaves to 1xbet online games login , so there is NO hope?
- Doug Grant:
- I feel that Leonard Bast is poorly misrepresented by Forster.
His desire to climb the Englilsh social ladder takes something
away from his character, as if he is willing to make the climb
only by forfeiting some part of himself. 1xbet online games login would seem as a more
effective method for Forster to use if Bast were to bring some
signifcant aspect of his personal self to the relationships he's
created with the others so that the reader may see more into
his character than simply his poor social status and desire for
a better one. The fact that he tragically dies abruptly doesn't
really help either, in my opinion.
- Karin Westman:
- Good comments 1xbet online games login the humor associated with Leonard....
- Here's another moment when class seems to stand out: What
did you make of the debate Helen and Margaret and their friends
have 1xbet online games login what to do with a million dollars to help the poor
-- the debate itself, as well as the decisions advocated by the
group?
- Karin Westman:
- John's introduced a really interesting quote from Margaret
about the degree to which money allows the Schegel and Wilcox
ways of life. A great quote to use to advocate for Forster's
awareness and critique of social class. Is Margaret the only
one who is aware of 1xbet online games login "fact"?
- 1xbet online games login :
- I think Laura is correct in saying that Forster intends the
umbrella scene to be funny, but not at Bast's expense. There
is humor even in pity, as someone said. Banks had an interesting
comment, that 1xbet online games login is human nature to ridicule those who are not
like us. To an extent that is true. I think Winston Churchill
said that we're all hypocrites to some extent. That's true, I
think. The key is to try and be the littlest hypocrite you can
be. I don't think Forster wants us to feel sorry for the Wilcoxes
for Charles' pompouness in the same way that he wants us to feel
sorry for Bast. But then again, 1xbet online games login is not pity that Forster wants
us to feel at all. He wants us to open our eyes to the intricacies
of Bast's situation, to be aware of what his life is like when
compared to the croquet games at Howards End.
- 1xbet online games login :
- The debate itself amuses me but disgusts me as well - 1xbet online games login
is exactly the type of thing that I would think of the Bloomsbury
Group talking about, and 1xbet online games login just seems so futile to me. Go out
and help some of the poor through social work (I'm not sure what
the volunteer opportunities were in England during this time)
rather than sit around in someone's parlor and discuss 1xbet online games login ! As
for the decisions from the group, I am predisposed to Margaret's
ideas. While there are certainly exceptions, I think that poor
people are not stupid and that they are perfectly capable of
making rational decisions about money, so giving Bast (or someone
like him) the money directly is fine, although more obviously
like charity, which gets into another sticky situation (whether
someone like Bast would directly take the money). The other decisions,
however, like giving the money to public works to create public
art galleries and tennis courts is good for the public in general,
but can people like Bast be expected to utilize these things
if they are working and struggling to stay afloat?
- Karin Westman:
- ****In order to wrap this first half of our discussion, offer
a final posting in response to this question: Does social class
encourage connection between people, or prevent 1xbet online games login ?
- 1xbet online games login :
- Yes, John, 1xbet online games login is intended as an impetus for all who read
the novel...OPEN YOU EYES. we can all affored to open our eyes,
and stop the ridicule and labeling and stereotyping, Is that
not one of the Bloomsbury messages. Ironically I am stereotyping,
I guess...
- 1xbet online games login :
- Doug has an interesting point. Bast does seem willing to
give up a part of him to climg the social ladder. The question
is this--isn't 1xbet online games login always that way? Don't you lose some part of
you when you become something you were not? The ideal thing would
be to take what you knew as a poor person and appl 1xbet online games login to your
new life as a rich person. But 1xbet online games login doesn't seem to work that way.
- 1xbet online games login :
- At 1xbet online games login point in the novel, I'm not sure if Forster is advocating
connection between people - the Schlegel sister's are not very
successful (so far) in joining with Bast (or the WIlcoxes, with
the exception of Mr. WIlcox's proposal to Margaret), but they
are still trying, and Margaret does think "only connect"
in Ch. 22...
- Doug Grant:
- I think Margaret's statement about money is one of the most
significant of the novel. 1xbet online games login shows that despite the social influence
of English culture on everyone trying to find their place in
1xbet online games login , someone on the top such as Margaret, who has all the money
she needs, can truly appreciate what she is trying to be careful
not to take for granted. Through her, 1xbet online games login shows growth and maturity
and maybe some hope for the negative aspects of this English
society.
- 1xbet online games login :
- Social class is human nature. We need to classify., to sort,
to order our lives so that we may ultimately define ourselves.
1xbet online games login seems to be what all Howard's End cahacters sre striving
for. But there is also a need for us to part from our notions
in order that we may continue to learn and grow spiritually.
Thus, in 1xbet online games login way, I might say that social class does encourage
connection as well as its inverse. For when you classify you
are also admitting to a relationship among those classes
- 1xbet online games login :
- I think there is no doubting that social class prevents connection
with people. If Bast hadn't been worried about his umbrella or
the girls following him home and robbing him, he could have had
tea that first day. Conversely, though, the Schlegels would have
never met the Wilcoxes if they had not been traveling abroad.
So perhaps 1xbet online games login is that one can connect within his or her own social
class but 1xbet online games login is very difficult to connect with someone outside
ones social class. Even in the U.S. today, which is supposedly
classless, I have experienced this as well--from both sides.
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